Kristin is founder and CEO at Nia Impact Capital. She is a pioneer in the field of impact investing. She is devoted to re-envisioning capitalism, to changing the face of finance, and to promoting inclusion and diversity in leadership.

In our conversation we talk about the importance of understanding money, finance, and investing and the life-changing force that money has. We speak about creating healthy cultures and how Kristin is on the front lines of gender lens investing, both through leading a women-owned company and supporting women-owned companies.

---

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[music]

[00:00:03] Marc Lesser: Welcome to Zen Bones. This is Marc Lesser. Zen Bones is a biweekly podcast featuring conversations with leading teachers and activists, and an exploration of Zen teachings and practices. Please support our work by making a donation at marclesser.net/donate.

[music]

[00:00:29] Marc: My guest today is Kristin Hull. Kristin is founder and CEO at Nia Impact Capital. She’s a pioneer in the field of impact investing and is re-envisioning capitalism, changing the face of finance and promoting inclusion and diversity in leadership. She founded Nia Community Investments in 2010, and it’s 100% mission-aligned investment fund focused on social justice, environmental sustainability, and she’s based in Oakland, California.

In our conversation today, we talk about the importance of understanding money, finance, and investing, and the life-changing force that money can be. We speak about creating healthy cultures and how Kristin is on the front lines of gender lens investing, both through leading a women-owned company and supporting women-owned companies through investments. I hope you enjoy today’s episode.

[music]

[00:01:36] Marc: I’m very pleased to welcome Kristin Hull. I consider you almost a family member through some of my connections with one of my mentors. Kristin is one of the real pioneers in the realm of impact investing, gender lens investing through Nia Impact Capital. Kristin, good morning.

[00:01:57] Kristin Hull: Good morning, Marc. So nice to be here with you.

[00:02:01] Marc: One of the things that– It’s interesting. I’m teaching a class all day today. It’s a spirit rock based class on mindful leadership. The structure that we’ve been using for that class is the through line and connection between the individual and wellbeing, relationships, and how relationships– what that has to do with creating healthy cultures, and then impact with the larger community in the world. I thought that might be a– We’ll see what happens, but it’s a way I’m thinking of our conversation. I’m curious, what do you do for your own wellbeing these days?

[00:02:53] Kristin: Oh, Marc, it’s such a good question. With the challenging times that our world is going through, figuring out our communities, who are our communities now? Are we feeling the threats of climate change? Are we feeling healthy and well while there’s war in the world? Being able to ground, being able to really check in internally, definitely connecting with nature and taking those times for stillness is really part of my daily routine. Also, really connecting with intention and purpose, which is what we do at Nia, but starting my day in a quiet way, and then also finding those moments in between Zooms and in between busy times to be quiet.

[00:03:33] Marc: I was going to say I made the mistake of, I don’t know, I also have to say I appreciate the practice of reading the newspaper in the morning. Man, here we are, this time of two wars happening. One of the things that really jumped out at me in today’s paper was the buildup of nuclear arms in China. It’s hard to not live in a state of fear, and how to face the challenge, the wars, climate change, nuclear arms, and yet to remain centered, grounded, and even optimistic in the work that we’re doing, and with our children and families. Hard to do. I don’t know how anyone does it without a regular practice of some kind, I have to say.

[00:04:35] Kristin: We definitely see that we all need hope, and I’m one of those that see and believe that action actually brings hope. I mentioned that getting grounded and being still and listening in is really an important part, and yet we’re very much actors. Thinking about the change that we can make and knowing that change really can happen one conversation at a time. We’re very intentional about the conversations we have, be it with clients to empower women with their investing, or with really large corporations about their practices and how they can change to be more equitable. Whether it’s bringing in more diverse leadership, whether it’s being really conscious about their emissions and reporting on their scope 1, 2, and 3 emissions or setting a Paris alignment, we do have these conversations one at a time and in a really conscious and intentional way.

[00:05:31] Marc: I assume you’re aware of it, but I feel your energy so shift when you talk about acting and doing. I’m this funny creature, probably people feel my energy shift when it comes to not doing, but I think both and how we can integrate the non-doing but with the doing, there’s an expression, “Those who do, can.” It’s turning around, “Those who can, do.” What I heard you just saying is, there’s something about doing. There’s something about acting and learning from that. It sounds like you’re really on the front lines. I could feel your energy. The front lines of acting about getting people to rethink the world of money, the world of impact, the world of investing.

[00:06:23] Kristin: Yes. That is our purpose, and that does wake me up in the morning. We have this economy that is very linear, and it works for very few people. For our economy and our world to work for our planet and our people, we really need to make some shifts. Moving into circularity, into reciprocity, to having our economy in Wall Street feel less transactional and more relational is what we’re really about. Really seeing the people behind the ticker symbols and getting to know those people in big corporations, and then also, welcoming people into owning what they own and knowing what they own and ideally, investing to be really proud of what they own.

[00:07:10] Marc: Kristin, I really so appreciate and admire the work that you do and think that it’s so important. Most people, and I feel like I’m still learning, what’s happening with our money? Where do we put our savings? Where do we put our savings accounts, our retirement accounts? Where do companies and colleges put their funds? How important it is how we utilize our money and that you’re in that world having real impact?

I so admire the work that you’re doing around money and the importance of where our money sleeps at night and how our money is active during the day. I know you now have a research team and a mutual fund. I’m interested in learning more about how you decide what companies to invest in, not invest in, and also your theory of change about why this is so important about where we put our money.

[00:08:18] Kristin: Marc, I so appreciate that. Yes. This is what gets me up in the morning and what gets me excited, because in the US and in other places, we’re so separate from our money and yet we really do get the economy that we invest into. That’s how the economy gets created, with dollars. If we can be more conscious about where we’re directing our dollars, we really can have the world that we want to see.

Choosing those companies that are actually working on the transition to our next just and sustainable economy, those companies that are going to be inclusive and build a sense of belonging for their employees, and those that really respect the environment, biodiversity, and all of the things that we need to live safely and in a healthy way on this planet. Building portfolios of those solutions-focused companies, and then really bringing transparency where the financial industry really hasn’t had that. We actually have an interesting history in the US about investments.

With those people coming from Europe, if you think back to pilgrims and that era, those people weren’t just coming to the US forever. They were checking it out to see if it was going to work out and whether they were going to give up what they had in Europe, so they actually had one foot in and one foot out. That meant that a lot of the people that were trying out the US had investments, properties, projects going on in Europe, and they left them in trust with a financial person, a trusted person. As you can imagine, we didn’t have cell phones or computers, so there was very much trust and almost no transparency, and almost no communication about what was happening while they were over here in the US or vice versa.

That legacy of zero transparency and very little communication has carried forward, and that’s almost what we expect about our money. Being conscious about what we own requires more communication and a lot more transparency. We’re working to build that, such that people can be really proud of what they own. They can know what they own, and then be really empowered to direct their money towards those things that they really care about, and the areas of the economy that we need to see grow where there can be a financial return.

[00:10:41] Marc: Yes, it’s interesting. I was noticing, I wrote down as you were speaking, environment, inclusiveness, trust, transparency, and consciousness. Then it’s interesting at the end, you talked about the need for a return. I think there’s been so much tension around retraining all of us, that you can have not only good returns, but great returns by working– well, how we define return.

It’s funny, I remember it used to be that investing in socially responsible companies meant that you were sacrificing a certain return. It’s beautiful how that’s changed, and now there’s the sense that perhaps not only is the return equivalent, but there’s some evidence that you can get an even better return by investing in companies that are working toward the environment, toward this major shift that we’re in the new energy economy especially.

[00:11:52] Kristin: Absolutely, there is. We do need to really check where we’re getting the messaging from. Those people that started that narrative were pretty attached to the status quo investments, and so really understanding where the messaging is coming from and whether there’s any research to back that up. In this case, there wasn’t, and yet the voice was loud, and because many of us are so separated from our investments, and it’s not something we learn about in high school. Last time I checked, California is certainly not one of them. I think there were 11 states that offer required some financial literacy to graduate from high school. College also doesn’t require that.

Even for economics majors, even for MBAs, there isn’t a personal investing component most often, and so this is something that gets passed down sometimes at the dinner table. Often times it’s very patriarchal, like many things in our society and women are left out of those conversations, and so really learning about how to do our investment is something that we often have shame about.

It’s interesting, because, again, we haven’t learned how to do it. There hasn’t been oftentimes an actual curriculum, and yet it’s something we’re expected to do. You think about it, in the US, we have to pay for our bodies, ourselves, our feeding, our home, our clothing, and our families, and yet we’re not taught how to grow that wealth and how to manage it. Is fascinating, I think, just as far as our society.

Breaking that down, what it does, and this is also the patriarchy does play into this, where women in particular feel a certain amount of shame that we don’t know how to do this even though we weren’t taught this. You think about it, I don’t know how to do heart surgery. I didn’t study that, and I don’t have any shame about not knowing how to do that. Similarly, building a skyscraper, don’t have a clue. It doesn’t keep me up at night and I don’t have any shame, and I’m not even sure we should have skyscrapers. I’m not sure how that– At any rate, it’s not something I’ve shame about. Yet, when you talk to most women and many people of color, they carry a lot of shame about not knowing about their investments.

It also keeps us isolated because then we don’t talk about it. At Nia, we’re really encouraging people to talk about their investments. We want to help empower people to talk about it. Then with that consciousness and understanding can come directing it to the things that they really care about that benefit us and society, and will, as you mentioned, have a multiple bottom line. Financial returns, social returns, and environmental returns are what we’re looking for. We absolutely know that companies that are working and really conscious of those areas do really well.

There’s even examples of companies that rather than disposing of waste are looking to recycle that waste or reuse it or partner with another company where there could be a symbiotic exchange where one person’s waste is actually a component needed for something else in another industry or sector. Then they can actually save money and be even more economically smart while they’re being environmentally smart.

There’s a few other examples. Diverse teams make better decisions over 80% of the time. Looking to have a diverse team and leadership, we want short-term thinkers. We want long-term thinkers, and we want everybody at the table to really make the best decisions. We look for that in our companies. We also know that women in leadership bring some really interesting attributes that can be really beneficial to a company. These are some of the things we’re working on at Nia.

[00:15:42] Marc: Do you have some resources in terms of books, podcasts, courses, anything? Like, if someone listening to this says, “Geez, I need to up my education and game here in terms of the world of money and investing.” Anything that top of mind for you?

[00:16:01] Kristin: Sure. I write a money doula blog, The Money Doula. We at Nia are actually just redoing our website. It’ll be out in a couple of weeks. We’ll have many more resources at niaimpactcapital.com. We actually are launching our own podcast as well. We’ll be excited to share different ways to invest with a racial justice and a racial equity lens, and what does that look like and how to do that.

We also write a lot about investing to be gender smart and with a gender lens and centering women in investments, and how that can really play out in a positive way, both for the women and the people doing the investments as well as the financial returns in the companies, et cetera. Thinking about products and services, thinking about leadership, thinking about policies and practices within companies that lead to inclusion and belonging, which generally is better and brings more loyalty for employees, which we really like. Writing a lot. We’ll be having this podcast as well. Then let me think about more resources that I can send.

[00:17:05] Marc: Yes, I look forward to hearing your podcast. I’ve just started reading your blog. It’s interesting, you talked about expertise, skyscrapers or heart surgery, but money it’s just so part of our daily lives that for many of us it’s invisible both in day-to-day, how we work with money. It’s interesting. I noticed. Where was I? I was buying something the other day.

Oh, I took my grandson out for ice cream, and without thinking I opened my wallet and was going to pay in cash, and I realized I’ve not opened my wallet and paid something in cash. I can’t remember the last– It makes me realize how invisible money is, and using a credit card all the time makes it even more invisible. Our savings accounts tend to be a whole another level of invisibility, so I appreciate the work of making it conscious and making our choices conscious at so many different levels.

[00:18:16] Kristin: Thanks, Marc. When you mentioned where is your money sleeping at night, our banks really are doing so much work, and when you’re banking locally at a local bank or a CDFI, they’re sometimes called as well, those banks are loaning out the money. It’s not like we put the money in a deposit and it just sits there. Their business model is that they take that money and then make loans with it, and they’re making a profit while you have a deposit of savings, checking, et cetera. Watching to see where they’re loaning that money can make a really big difference.

Is it going to local businesses in your community, the ice cream shop where you shop, and really putting it into women, people of color, small businesses? That’s what local banks do by charter, by their mission. That’s what their goals are to do, and that’s their business model. Some of the larger banks with the really big name brands, those are multinational banks that largely are financing the fossil fuel industry and other industries that may or may not match your values. Choosing where you bank can be a really big indicator. It can be a really big power move.

When people are shifting banks, I definitely recommend opening the account first at the local place and doing it in steps so that you’re not thinking you’re going to do all this at one time, because the financial industry really does move slowly. Having expectations about how quickly you can align your money with your values, and then getting some coaching and bring a friend. Because the more we can talk about it and share like, “Hey, where are you banking? How’s that working for you? Do you like your bankers?” The more we start talking about that– it’s almost been taboo. We really, in US culture don’t talk about how much money we make.

We certainly don’t talk about how much money we make, and then we don’t talk about where we put it or how we invest it. That’s a stereotype. There are lots of people, particularly Silicon Valley, [unintelligible 00:20:14], Porsche, those people are talking and they’re making deals on the golf course and other places, whereas most of us really aren’t spending that much time sharing our investments with others. The more we can be transparent, conscious, and open about that, I think there’s more change and more conversations where we can make different decisions.

[00:20:35] Marc: I think there’s an enormous room and need for improvement and transparency in this. As you say, how hard it is for people to talk about money. You and I met, I believe we met first at a social venture network, and it was always so curious to me, even in that environment where in some way it was an environment of socially responsible business, consciousness, transparency, almost everything got talked about there except for money. You looked around the room and you knew that there’s some really wealthy people here. There’s some really poor people here.

We have no idea, and it’s interesting the– That’s true. It’s funny even. I lived and I’m still very involved in the Zen community, and money is just one of the things that for the most part, just rarely, rarely gets talked about. I think there’s some shame about it or some– It’s interesting, the secretiveness around wealth and money and where one puts their money. I have to admit, I was a little slow in moving my money out of Wells Fargo and into– I now happily bank with Redwood Credit Union.

It was interesting when I was shifting my accounts, the people who were serving me at Wells Fargo said, “We all bank at Redwood Credit Union, too.” It was so interesting experience, and I just feel better knowing that I’m working with a smaller local bank. I have to say, Wells Fargo was just fine with me, but when you look at where– They’re still investing in the fossil fuel industry.

[00:22:25] Kristin: That’s right. There’s some resources, when you asked about resources, Rainforest Action Network actually puts out a report card of all of the banks every year, and we love that because they really dive in to see who’s funding coal, who’s funding oil, and then they give a report card, and then they also challenge their activism depending on what those grades are, A through F.

I do recommend look up your bank and see how it’s doing. They’re only rating the really large banks, the local banks, pretty much by definition, they can’t actually bid for those large international pipeline projects, so they’re not– Again, by definition, they are lending locally. You brought up something. If you do change, decide to move either advisors, who’s managing your money or your bank, to the extent you feel comfortable.

I do recommend having that conversation and letting people know why. It can be so empowering to have other people know what you’re doing and why. Who knows if you might be inviting a friend. There’s a group of women in New York that have breakup with your bank parties. They have pink t-shirts, they all wear, they bring cupcakes, and they celebrate with the tellers who often are really proud of them, and excited, and they’re often banking somewhere else as well. It can be social and it can actually be fun.

Then I also wanted to just say, just using that voice with your friends and your community, similarly, we use it with the companies that we invest in, offering, almost consulting sometimes and just raising our voice about how we see they could do better, whether it is on tracking their emissions, scopes 1, 2, and 3, and reporting that out in a Paris alignment so that they are really thinking about both the potential risks of climate change, and then also the opportunities, and how could they be part of the solution.

We really do get into conversation and sometimes relationship with them about this. We also raise our voice about diversity, equity, and inclusion issues. I mention this because these conversations do lead to change. We’ve had some really significant changes at some really large companies and some small companies that are really making a difference. When all of us can do this together as far as either choosing an asset manager who wants to be part of the solution, all of us can be part of the solution that way with our money.

[00:24:54] Marc: I love the energy and the action here. It is a realm where we all– I found it very empowering, actually, to have the conversation, “I’m taking my money out because I don’t want to be supporting fossil fuels.” It was interesting to see the people at the bank applaud me. I feel like there’s still so much more work that I can do personally in understanding.

I want to shift a little bit. I’m curious, Kristin, about how you go about– When I think about impact, mostly there’s the impact of the work that you’re doing and how you are engaging in the world of money and companies, but also looking into your own company, some things that you’re doing and learning about building a great culture internally. I wonder how that’s going and how you go about staying aligned with your company values and building a healthy, vibrant working organization. How’s that going and what are some of the best practices that you are doing or learning or wanting to do?

[00:26:04] Kristin: Marc, I really appreciate that. Before the pandemic, we had all sorts of practices. We worked out of a co-working space. Our staff would do yoga at lunchtime, and we would have community meals, and we would have our check-in meetings over breakfast next door at the Black woman-owned restaurant. We had practices that we felt really did unite us. We do support a lot of local nonprofits, and we do sponsor their events, so we do go to those together now.

Largely, we’re working remotely and on screen, and so trying to figure out those practices. One, it starts with hiring– I guess recruitment, actually, about what type of firm we want to be and being really intentional. We’re very different. We’re women-led and women-owned, and of all the asset managers in the US, 0.7%, so less than 1% of the money that’s managed is by a women-led team in a women-owned firm.

Just by being who we are, we’re sending a different message and we’re doing things differently. That has been really interesting as far as our own culture. We also have a Change the Face of Finance internship program where we welcome in young people and teach them about sustainable finance. We teach them about our research methods, and we teach them about how we’re active and how to be engaged with companies and also with our community.

Our practices really do lead a lot to our culture. We also were the very first firm to be gender equity now certified. I thought, “Well, we’re women led, we invest with a gender lens, hand us over the certification.” I thought it would be a pretty quick process. It turns out it was eight months of due diligence on our firm, looking at policies and practices, and it’s all research-based. We learned so much in that process, and our staff got really engaged with that, and so empowering our staff to work on the issues that matter. We’re also a B Corp and having our staff work on that certification process and really tracking and monitoring all of the impact that we’re having as part of our culture.

Then we do team lunches. We’re actually, today, we’ll have a celebratory team lunch. We celebrate birthdays. We also have a star of the week program where each of our staff is the star. All of our staff are the stars, but they get their own special week where they get to direct meetings. We have a company stretch each week that somebody directs and check-ins and checkouts about feelings of how we’re doing, and then also celebrating the milestones, so the small ones.

We have a setting an intention or a purpose for the day where we share a goal for the day, and then we also share a win in our chats, and so everyone gets to share and be celebrated. Changing the face of finance is a long road, and it’s a tough road to be a women-led asset manager, and yet each one of us is playing such a big part that we want to really celebrate each of our team members to the extent that we can over Zoom.

[00:29:14] Marc: I appreciate your energy around and your aspiration to have a really healthy culture. My experience is that it’s humbling and hard to. One of the things I’m fond of saying, which I think is a truism, is that if you’re not building trust in organization, you are building cynicism. That cynicism is easy in places where there’s money and power and hierarchy, and how to completely be, as much as one can, genuine and authentic and caring in the world of work and money takes skill and presence and work, and it feels like you’re wholeheartedly aspiring to walk that path.

[00:29:59] Kristin: We do wake up with intention and purpose, and as you mentioned, it’s really hard. Just connecting each person and building that trust with our staff, with our clients, with our community members and with the companies we invest in.

[00:30:12] Marc: Kristin, I feel like this is part one. Maybe we can at some point continue this conversation, but I just want to thank you for the important– I feel like it’s really important work that you’re doing. I just want to appreciate you as a leader, pioneer, but just as a lovely, lovely human being. Thank you for this time.

[00:30:33] Kristin: Marc, thank you so much. I look forward to following up and having another conversation about this. Really appreciate you.

[music]

[00:30:45] Marc: I hope you’ve appreciated today’s episode. To learn more about my work and my new book, Finding Clarity, you can visit marcLesser.net. This podcast is offered freely and relies on the financial support from listeners like you. Please donate at marclesser.net/donate. Thank you very much.

[music]

[00:31:14] [END OF AUDIO]