Marc sits down with his friend Leo Babauta. Leo is the founder of one of the most interesting and successful blogs on the internet called Zen Habits. He’s also the author of several books, including The Power of Less. Marc and Leo talk about meaning and meaningful work and the question how Zen practice can be integrated with, and support, our work and our lives. Leo also offers some powerful practices, especially around finding grounding in the body in the midst of uncertainty.

 

 

ABOUT MARC’S GUEST: Leo Babauta is a simplicity blogger and author. He created Zen Habits, a Top 25 blog with a million readers, which chronicles and shares what he’s learned while changing a number of habits. He’s also a best-selling author, husband, father of six children, and a vegan. In 2010 he moved from Guam to California, where he leads a simple life. A student of Zen, Leo is on a mission to help the world open through uncertainty training.

---

 

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] [music]

Marc Lesser: Welcome to Zen Bones. Ancient Wisdom for Modern Times. This is Marc Lesser. Why Zen Bones? Our world is in crisis and ever shifting, and now more than ever, more wisdom, clarity, and courage are essential, especially in the world of work, business, and leadership.

In today’s episode, I’m happy to welcome my friend Leo Babauta. [00:00:30] He is the founder of one of the most interesting and successful blogs on the internet called Zen Habits. He’s also the author of several books, including The Power of Less. In our conversation we talk about meaning and meaningful work and the question of Zen.

Leo offers some powerful practices, especially around finding grounding in the body [00:01:00] in the midst of uncertainty. I hope you’ll enjoy it as much as I enjoyed the conversation. Here’s Leo.

[music]

Marc: I am so happy to be here with my friend Leo Babauta of Zen Habits fame. It’s funny, I almost introduced us as this is Zen Habits because there’s, Zen Habits, Zen Bones, Zen but [00:01:30] Leo, it’s really great to see you.

Leo Babauta: It’s great to see you. It’s been been a few years since we last met, so I’m just really happy to be here with you.

Marc: I think I last saw you as I was leaving the 300 Page Street, Zen Center building and you were sitting in the lobby.

Leo: Oh, wow. You have such a good memory. Mine is full of holes so thanks for reminding me.

Marc: Your book Less and my book Less came out within 30 days of each other, literally.

Leo: [00:02:00] Oh, is that right?

Marc: I remember my publisher calling me and saying, “You should know this,” and that was how I first learned about you and your work. This is a whole another topic, but I feel like I’ve gotten to watch you grow and mature over these last 13 years.

Leo: That’s really nice.

Marc: I hope I’ve grown and matured. I don’t see it, but I’ve certainly seen how much your writing has grown and matured. I think what we should talk about here is [00:02:30] living in an uncertain world, how to find meaning and meaningful work, and what does Zen have to do with it?

Leo: [laughs] I’d be curious to find out.

Marc: Famous Aretha Franklin talk. [laughs] Actually, I’m here today in my daughter’s guest room, and she has a Thich Nhat Hanh, his calligraphy, which says, “Don’t ignore your suffering, [00:03:00] but don’t forget to enjoy your life. Don’t ignore your suffering and don’t forget to enjoy your life.” Which is a great place maybe to start because it maybe connects uncertainty, meaning and Zen.

Leo: Oh wow. That makes a lot of sense to me. Before we actually came on here, we talked about, what we’d like to talk about, and uncertainty has been something that’s really present [00:03:30] for me personally and that I’ve been practicing with. I know it’s very in your face for a lot of people right now [laughs] in the middle of a pandemic as we recorded this people maybe in the future are out of the pandemic. The pandemic and then just world events, really, just all kinds of world events are driving up uncertainty for a lot of us.

Uncertainty, [00:04:00] in my experience, I’d love to hear what your thoughts are about it. Uncertainty is not in and of itself like a cause of suffering or a bad thing or anything to panic about. I think that the human mind, at least the way that I’ve experienced it, does turn that uncertainty into a little bit of panic or judgment or [00:04:30] frustration or resistance. We have a number of things we take from that. It’s just like this feeling of the rugs been yanked out from under us, and we don’t know what to do. We wouldn’t need to grab on to something and seek some control. It’s resulted in a lot of suffering for a lot of people, is what I found. I don’t know if you’ve noticed that as well.

Marc: Oh, definitely. I think that it’s interesting. I was just rereading [00:05:00] some of Regina Pally, the neuroscientist who wrote The Predicting Brain and how we’re wired to predict that things in the past will keep happening in the future. I think the pandemic has been like a shock to the system. The shadow side to that is, yes, I think there’s a lot of stress and anxiety. Maybe the positive [00:05:30] side is it wakes you up to like, we really don’t know. There’s a “how do we find our own sense of balance and possibility?” Even, as you were saying earlier when we were chatting, was how do we actually even find meaning and meaningful work and living a meaningful life right in the midst of uncertainty?

Leo: That’s the exciting [00:06:00] part about it. The Thich Nhat Hanh thing you shared, “Don’t ignore your suffering.” We can’t ignore the suffering that’s springing from the uncertainty. You could look at it as the flip side of it is there’s an opportunity here. Possibility is arising where people are waking up, like getting really present to the uncertainty like you can’t ignore it anymore.

Before it’s like, maybe I had some control in my life, but now it’s [00:06:30] like, “Oh, no.” Uncertainty is very, very present for me. The ways that I respond to it are also becoming much more obvious. Because that’s so clear now, like you can’t ignore any of it, we might be like, “Okay, what is there to do about this? What can I do? Is there a possibility of waking up?” Then once you become awakened to what’s going on, like, “Oh, is there anything else that I might be able to do in the middle of this?” [00:07:00] Like meaningful work.

Marc: I wonder how you, in your own life, how you practice and live with– You found a way to continue going deeper and deeper, I think, into doing meaningful work as a teacher and guide and writer. Then I also wonder, as a teacher and guide and writer, what do you find is the maybe most useful, effective way [00:07:30] to help people? How do you help others to find their own sense of meaningful work and maybe own grounding in the midst of uncertainty?

Leo: That’s so important, such important questions. The way I’ve been personally working with it is, first thing is just noticing that I’ve been unconscious for a little while, like maybe a few minutes, maybe a few hours, maybe a few days, maybe [00:08:00] a few [laughs] years sometimes. I’m like, “Oh yes, I’ve been just responding to things in habitual ways.” Those are always helpful to me. They’re not necessarily anything to beat myself up about or judge, and so bringing in awareness and compassion are really where I start; the starting point.

Then [00:08:30] after the compassion, I can just start to practice really getting present to the sensation of uncertainty in my body, which is, for a lot of people who maybe haven’t studied as long as you have Marc [chuckles], and practiced as long as you have, the way that they try and get present to uncertainty is in the mind where it’s like, “Okay, here’s all the things going on.” If you ask them to get present to it, they’ll be like, [00:09:00] “Oh yes, I have to do all these things, and here’s what I need to next.” And so I really invite people, and for myself, I invite myself to drop into the body and get really present to the sensations, like: where is it located? How does it feel?

Then it’s just sensation. It’s not anything that I need to necessarily get rid of or fix or panic about, avoid, or judge, or any of that kind of stuff. “Oh, it’s just bodily sensation of uncertainty.” [00:09:30] There’s external events that might be triggering that, but in the end it’s just an experience. I just get present to that and see it as a practice ground. Sometimes breath helps me to relax with it, and then I can even bring some kindness and friendliness and start to shift my relationship to it. I could even find in the middle of it some transcendence. [00:10:00] Some openness and emptiness and love. You don’t necessarily need to get those things. It’s not like those are the solution to uncertainty, but it’s just like they can become available.

Marc: I really appreciate those practices to start with the body. To just notice these are sensations, whether these are fears or concerns or worries. [00:10:30] I’ve noticed, and I’ve noticed this for myself, that it’s easy to either catastrophize things or to ignore what’s happening and to say everything’s okay. It’s interesting. Someone asked me the other day, I had lunch with an old friend. She asked me, “Well, what is Zen or what’s the core of what you’re wanting to do in this Zen Bones podcast?” [00:11:00] I said, “It’s something to do with living more in reality.”

When I notice I’m catastrophizing or I notice I’m ignoring, I’m like, “Well, wait a minute. What’s actually happening?” As you were saying, I think starting with the body, starting with the breath, and just noticing what’s actually happening, that’s such a great starting point, and just [00:11:30] again noticing for ourselves. One of the things I’m often saying to myself as I’m doing things, as I’m worrying or catastrophizing or ignoring, I notice it, and it’s like, “Oh, I’m doing that thing that I’m often teaching other people not to do. Isn’t that interesting?”

Leo: [laughs] It’s fascinating. Thanks for sharing that. I so love your intention [00:12:00] here. It’s such a delight to be able to talk with someone who not only has a similar haircut and bushy eyebrows like me, but [laughs] is up to some good in the world. I really love what you’re doing. Same thing. I find myself engaging in catastrophizing or ignoring. Sometimes there’s a fun trick of doing both at the same time, [laughs] [00:12:30] but I definitely do those things. It’s like we’re all humans, right? No one’s above all of this. If someone thinks they’re above all of it, they’re probably ignoring some stuff.

I just like, “Oh, okay, yes, I’m doing it too just like everyone else is.” Then what I try and do is let go of my judgment [00:13:00] of that. Sometimes there’s a judgment, like, “Oh, I should be above this. I should have learned all this already.” I teach it. I’ve been practicing for years but no, there’s just like, “That’s my humanity showing itself.” Then the really fun thing for me is, could I use that to connect me to everybody else who’s feeling similar body sensations, similarly catastrophizing. [00:13:30] Then just feel love for myself and for them.

Marc: It’s interesting in some way, as you started with the body and coming to the body, which I think is a practice in a way- a practice of security, feeling secure. Then what I was hearing you say is then, it’s kind of a [00:14:00] practice of perspective-taking. Sometimes I think of it as these two tensions because perspective-taking is something we do. It’s more logical in our heads, in our minds, but it calms the catastrophizing or the ignoring. I think there’s something [00:14:30] about the importance of keep coming back to finding, building a sense of security, a sense of groundedness in order to be able to take.

It’s hard to start with perspective-taking often. First, we need a little bit of grounding, a little bit of something physical. That’s to me, something about why I often [00:15:00] keep coming back to the importance of meditation practice, is that physical, that physical, what’s happening in the body. Then to be able to, in the midst of uncertainty, in the midst of what’s happening in our lives, to just have enough to be able to do that and not be completely tossed around by whatever’s happening, lost, like you’re lost.

Leo: Lost. [laughs] [00:15:30] It’s interesting that you use the word grounded because I also feel uncertainty as groundlessness. It’s like no solid ground under your feet and so how do you find ground in the middle of groundlessness? That’s just being with whatever arises in your body in the middle of the groundlessness is a grounding practice. It’s a fascinating idea. [00:16:00]

Then your second question was how do I help others with it? How do I teach people? One thing I’ve learned the hard way is you can’t just try and force people to change or see things. I’m really good at pointing out how other people are catastrophizing, and they don’t seem to like it. [laughs] [00:16:30] What I’ve been doing is really – one is to share as I just have, how it’s showing up in my life and invite others to look for themselves. Is there anything there that they see?

Another thing that has really helped is I invite people in through things that they already want. For example, in my website and stuff that I offer, [00:17:00] we do a lot of work around habits, changing your habits, which is like that’s definitely a way to get some control and groundedness. People want that. They want to change their health habits. They want to start meditating. I find that to be like a doorway for people to enter in and take a look at, “Oh, what is this for? Why do you want this? Why are you doing the other things?”

Take a deeper look [00:17:30] because that’s what they’re already looking for, is like, “Okay, I need these things so that my life can feel under control.” I teach from that place of like, “Okay, let’s take a look and see what’s coming underneath your current habits and underneath the difficulty to change to your new habits and underneath your desire to create new ones.” That’s one place that I’ve been helping people with.

Then the other one is meaningful [00:18:00] work. You’re here launching a podcast. You’ve launched a podcast in the middle of a lot of uncertainty. I find that really inspiring. There are people who are saying, “You know what? I do want to do something that feels meaningful to me, bringing my heart and gifts into the world and helping others who are suffering,” and yet they really struggle. We all really struggle in the middle of uncertainty.

So that’s where I’ve been meeting [00:18:30] people. It’s like, “Okay, you have something you want to do. These are fellow Bodhisattvas really to try to alleviate the suffering of all beings and bring compassion. Really boundless compassion is what I’ve seen from people. Then, what is shutting that down? Some of the catastrophizing and hiding or ignoring or avoiding that people have or seeking of control and [00:19:00] perfectionism. We bring in psychology, some of our very human responses to this uncertainty is they come up and they get in the way of us doing our meaningful work.

I’ve been meeting people there just like, “Let’s take a look at what’s getting in the way there.” I really find it fascinating, and I really love helping people to – the way I [00:19:30] phrase it is train in the middle of uncertainty, and then fall in love with the uncertainty. That’s at least a start to the answer of your question.

Marc: No, totally. You’ve used the word compassion a few times, and I think at least once, you mentioned the word Bodhisattva, comes from Buddhist. It’s a Buddhist word, but it’s about someone who- [00:20:00] beings are numberless. I vow to save them, and delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. I think we all swim together in this sea of uncertainty. We’re all swimming together in the sea of uncertainty. To me it’s like how do we train ourselves to be that person on the boat who can be calm enough to be helping others? [00:20:30]

I love that as I think of that particular image of being in a boat of uncertainty where it’s easy to be freaking out because where are we? There’s some leaks in this boat! How can I stay grounded enough and have enough of a sense of perspective to take effective action and to help calm other people down. A lot of the work that I’m doing is [00:21:00] in the business world. I think being able to do these practices of calming one’s self and perspective-taking with compassion, is in itself a kind of teaching, and it’s somewhat contagious. To me this is one of the things that I find in terms of doing meaningful work, it’s so core to that I have to keep working on myself. [00:21:30]

I was saying this earlier, I’ve been watching you. There’s something wonderful about seeing people like you grow and deepen and develop over the years. I think it’s great that you started using the word Zen. There’s probably no accident. Even before it was just, I imagine, there was something that really [00:22:00] attracted you about that word and that tradition. Then over the years, you’ve been really just deepening and deepening your own practice and the whole time, helping others.

Leo: Thanks for reflecting that back to me. The growth and the deepening, I still have a ways to go, but I really have been enjoying the journey so far. When I started Zen Habits, I think it was 2007 [00:22:30] I still don’t know, but I definitely didn’t know anything about what Zen really was. For me it was just a word of like, peace. It still is that, and it’s grown and deepened for me. The frustrating thing about it, I’ll tell you as a student talking to a teacher, is every time I think I understand what Zen is, someone yanks the rug up from underneath me. I still don’t understand it. [laughs]

Marc: It’s beautiful that [00:23:00] we both are practicing in the tradition of Shunryu Suzuki and Sōtō Zen where the emphasis is on beginner’s mind, and the emphasis is on sincerity. I love this particular school which emphasizes not knowing. The practice of not knowing. I sometimes think that Zen could use a little more knowing from time to time. Something about [00:23:30] cultivating the mind of a beginner, I think, keeps us deepening our practice and deepening our ability to live in this uncertain world.

Leo: That’s a fascinating thing that you’ve brought up, the knowing versus the not knowing, because I think for me the power of the not knowing has been letting go of what I think I know if the thing that I think I know is causing me suffering. I just like, “Oh, I thought I knew who I [00:24:00] was, and that thinking has caused me some suffering.” So letting go of that. If you have some knowing that relieves suffering or that helps you to navigate the uncertainty, then I’d say that sounds helpful. [laughs] Hold onto it as long as you need it.

Marc: It’s interesting that Zen emphasizes kind of a precision. There’s a precision especially in the forms which I think can be a way of bringing us [00:24:30] back to what’s happening in the body. How am I moving? How am I walking? What’s happening in my body as I’m walking into the meditation hall?

Leo: I resist forms very strongly. [laughs] I’ll admit that. Confess to it.

Marc: I think in some way that’s almost the point. [00:25:00] I think one of the great things about meditation practice is to become more and more aware and open to our own resistance. In the hero’s journey, that model, the first step in the hero’s journey is starting out and this great attitude of finding my way home, this kind of way-seeking mind. Then, the second step on the hero’s journey is resistance [00:25:30] or not wanting to go there since it’s a little scary. It’s opening up to this uncertain world, and then feeling our resistance and the fear. Then, how do we work with that to do meaningful work and to keep doing meaningful work?

Leo: That’s a beautiful way to bring it back. Actually, could I speak for a minute about resistance to meaningful work?

Marc: Please.

Leo: That resistance, that’s the very thing that people are struggling with, [00:26:00] the people I’ve been working with, when they’re trying to do some kind of meaningful work. Whether it’s write a book that helps other people or start a nonprofit or launch a business or beautiful podcast. They have this great intention, something they want to manifest but then they find that when they have to actually do the work or put something out there, there’s a resistance. [00:26:30] It’s almost like a wall that shows up for them.

The work that I’ve been doing is really helping them to face that resistance as I’m doing in my Zen studies. Face that resistance and then, really bring awareness and compassion and some of this bodily practice as well, and use the resistance as the practice ground. It’s fascinating to help others while I’m also working with my own resistance as a student. [00:27:00] What I do with them, and for anyone who’s listening to this, if you want to practice with your resistance with your meaningful work, is we set some kind of intention like, “I want to create this,” and usually, by a certain date. That really gives a form, really, so it’s like, “Okay, I’ve created that.”

Then, actually, the part that they’ll really resist is – that’s already a place of resistance for a lot of people. But if they can do that, then there’s setting some milestones, [00:27:30] and then setting up some actual sessions where they sit down and focus. Those sessions where there might be, let’s say 30 minutes a day or an hour a day, not a lot of time, but carve that time out and then commit yourself to it and people will resist that just like they resist meditating. It’s like they resist all the – I resist my [unintelligible 00:27:54]. They will find anything else to do. All of a sudden, [00:28:00] their kitchen needs to be cleaned, or they’ll go into it and then, really struggle and then, let themselves out of that uncomfortable place of not knowing.

The support I give them really is to, how do we keep coming back to that? First of all. Second of all, could we take a look at what showed up when you didn’t do it? Or when you did do it and you really struggled there? Then, by taking a look at it, that gives them a place to practice the next time. Then, they go into the next focus [00:28:30] session just like a meditation, like, “Oh, okay. When this is showing up, that’s actually not a problem, that’s what we expect to show up.” That’s the thing that we want to work with or bring awareness to, and even bring some love to and compassion to. That’s the kind of work that I’ve been doing with people, and it’s really fascinating. People have done some really amazing work there.

Marc: That’s great. I’m often saying that deadlines are my friend. [00:29:00] People sometimes ask, “Well, how do you write books?” for example. The two things I do, which I think are two things that you just named, one, is set clear goals, clear deadlines but also find support. I can’t write a book by myself. I need other people too. I need an editor. I need [00:29:30] people to read it and give me feedback, and it’s that combination. Not only for me, is it a deadline but it’s telling someone else, “I’m going to get you these chapters by these dates.”

Similarly, I’ve been stalling in some way. I’ve been thinking about doing this podcast for years, but it’s like what’s making it happen [00:30:00] was putting dates on the calendar and building a team of people-

Leo: That’s right.

Marc: -around me to help, like Sebastian who’s here. There’s something about taking that idea and intention into action, into the world, and then noticing what happens.

Leo: [00:30:30] I’m so glad to hear you reflect that, because it’s probably the most powerful lesson I’ve learned in the last few years, is… I often have this idea that I can do everything on my own. One of the things with my Zen study is, okay, I’m going to meditate on my own. I’m going to sew on my own. I’m going to do all of this stuff on my own. The humbling thing has been the realization that I can’t. [00:31:00] Often, I’ll judge that there’s something wrong with me because I’m not doing it, but when I finally just surrender to that and confess that I can’t do it on my own, what happens is, I open up to the possibility of getting support, being supported by others or doing it in community, the Sangha idea in zen.

What I’ve been encouraging people to do is do the same thing, even if they’re not Zen students. Could we do this in [00:31:30] community or in connection? A lot of times these focus sessions that I talked about, the most powerful ones are actually when we jump on a Zoom call and do it together. We’ll do it on mute, but we’ll be doing our writing or whatever we’re doing in community. Then having a review or some kind of accountability or some kind of call where we all talk about what’s going on is another way that we do that. Every time that we’re struggling on our own, how [00:32:00] can we get supported? How can we do it in community or in connection?

Marc: Well, maybe this is a good place to bring this– I hope this is part one of many, many conversations, Leo.

Leo: I would love that.

Marc: Anything you’d like to do or say just as a way of ending our time here now? Anything you’d like to offer?

Leo: I think the only thing I’d like to offer is wherever you are [00:32:30] right now with the uncertainty that’s been arising in the world and in yourself, in your life, first of all, just know that you’re not alone. We’re all in this together suffering or experiencing this together. Second of all, encouragement for compassion for yourself. I’m talking about this expense of doing meaningful work for others, but really, the place [00:33:00] to start is with yourself. How can you have compassion for yourself? How can you take care of yourself, so that you can then become resilient enough to go out and do meaningful work?

My encouragement to anyone listening or watching is, can you just start with compassion for yourself, taking care of yourself, and getting yourself to the place where you might even consider meaningful work or facing any kind of other uncertainty other than what you’re already facing. [00:33:30] Sending love out through the interwebs right now [laughs] to anyone who’s facing these things.

Marc: Thank you, Leo, and thank you for all of the great work that you’ve been doing over these many years that has touched a lot of people. Really appreciate it and look forward to more. Do take care. We’ll see you.

Leo: Thank you, Marc. Thanks for your great work.

Marc: Listen in each week for interviews, teachings, and guided [00:34:00] meditations. You’ll receive supportive tools for creating more meaningful work and mindfulness practices to develop yourself, to influence your organization, and to help change the world. Thank you for listening.

[00:34:22] [END OF AUDIO]